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Thread: having 2nd thoughts on the hornet..........

  1. #1
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    Default having 2nd thoughts on the hornet..........

    once upon a time, this was what i planed to get...........

    a regulated 12 ftlbs FT/HFT delicated rig ie. hornet, and
    a 20+ foot pounder for "long distance" or "big game" hunting. something like the S410E or .20 eliminator...etc

    then, i tried out the FX 2000. like most pcp's it's easy to shoot and deadly accurate. afaik, the ME can be adjusted internally, but unlike the s200/400/410 series, the amount of adjustment is much larger (10-20+ ftlbs?) and with out the need of additional modifications.

    i'm now seriously considering the FX 2000, what's the FT/HFT ruling on the power adjustment? as long as on the day it's less then 12 ftlbs, it's fine, right?

  2. #2
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    If it shoots less than 12ft when tested at a competition then there isn't any problem ! That's the rules..
    About the BSA and FX, Have you shot them and compared accuracy ? On a bench anything worse than 1 hole at 20m is not acceptable.
    Since people believe I should be a writer (see other threads) I will as always try and please them and let the writer in me come out...
    A std 12ft/lbs .177 airrifle can make clean kills out to 50m if the shooter has the ability, ofcourse depending on what you're shooting at. Hunting Rino/Eland with your airgun could prove to be a problem, even at 10m. So choose your "game" carefully. I would strongly suggest that you keep your shots to 30-40m max ! With an airgun shot placement is really critical, so if you start pushing the distance you will start slipping on accuracy and wounding animals. If you want to shoot further than that have a look at a .22LR or .22Hornet. (That ofcourse is my personal opinion. )
    The "speed"traps that have been mentioned in a previous thread is really a fact. Pellet guns are at their most accurate in the 12ft range, going over that you will start getting flyers ! If I buy myself a gun that shoots over 12ft I set it back to 12ft ! If you insist on doing 20+ft then consider heavy pellets and maybe a .20 (.22 airguns need a licence).
    Do yourself another favour, go to the gunshop with the FX and ask them to set up to chrony for you and test if it's really as adjustable as they say and also check the consistency while adjusting. Say the adjustment settings is 1,2,3 then do 10 shots on each setting (while recording the info) then go back to the start and start testing all over again to see if the speed stays the same. You're paying alot of money so make very sure it's what you want and NEED.
    Invest in a good set of mounts and a minimum magnification of 6-24, the higher the better !
    Stay away from the so called hunter pellets with plastic covers and copper tips, they are not heavy enough and will not be accurate. Invest in Air Arms Field or Daystates or UltraTec pellets (they are actually all the same pellets - personal opinion) Also try Accupells and 10.5gr Premiers.
    Hope this helps, cheers

    <span class='smallblacktext'>[ Edited Mon Jul 19 2004, 08:50AM ]</span>

  3. #3
    Sharp Shooter

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    Take a look at the Airforce Tallon/stealth. We had one one the range this weekend that did an incredible 1293 fps on the chrony. After shooting +- 80 shots at lower power we turned it up again and it was back at 1290 fps. Accuracy at this speed was not to bad (25m) considering the guy was using AA field Pellets.

  4. #4
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    at the moment, my max range with a +/- 13ftbs springer is about 30-40m. the reason why i thought about a 20 foot pounder, is to extend that range to 50-60 and still comfortably make a clean kill or take on bigger things like cane rats at 30-40m. not exactly sure why the sudden "power-trip"? perhaps i've visited too many american air gun sites........

    as with the FX 2000 (not uk model ie. webley fx 2000), the power is adjusted by a screw, and it can vary the MV from 1050+ to just under 800 fps with cpl's (7.9 gr) and it's pretty consistent at the set power level. can't remeber the exact figures but it was good (not as good as the MFR though).

    anyways, i'm going back to the original plan. well, i'm going ahead with the hornet and see if i really need the "extra power". i'm looking at 2 scopes.........N/S new gold crown tactical 6-24 X 50 mil dot IR and BSA contender? 6-24 X 40 mil dot. any comments? or should i invest in something a bit better????

    thanks

  5. #5
    Marksman
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    forget the BSA scope...rather go for the N\S

    The Airforce Talons are awesome but need tinkering to get them to shoot well.
    I have a 40ft\lb one and it is an amazing hunting rifle...light, rugged , accurate.
    Gets about 70 fairly consistent shots at that power level.
    AT 12ft\lbs you can easily get 300 shots out of it.
    Power is not that easily adjustable and once you decide on a power level rather loctite everything and keep it that way.
    If anyone needs info on the Talon please email me or call and I can give quite a bit of advice....I have really tinkered with mine a lot and love it.

  6. #6
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    Guido,
    what's the power set to ?
    What pellets are you using ?
    Grouping size at 30m ?
    Overseas (UK) the Talon is known as GunPower Stealth and I've been told that they are not as accurate as Air Arms, BSA, Daystate and the other good quality PCP's.
    I have shot a few shots with one and really wasn't impressed ! First of all they are much more expensive than the others like S400s and Hornets and the like. The cylinder just doesn't work for me as a cheekpiece, it's very uncomfortable. And then I really don't like the non adjustable trigger.
    Again understand, the fact that I don't like it and find it very uncomfortable doesn't mean that it won't work for you.

  7. #7
    Anonymous165.165.150.179's Avatar Anonymous165.165.150.179
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    Urabus,
    First thing, Quality springers like the TX200 and HW77or97 are just as accurate as good quality PCP's like S400, Hornets and the like. However, for hunting (if you intend eating the rats) or pest control (which I hope).
    Power - 12ft is said to be the most accurate so try and stick to it, you'll be amazed how accurate a 12ft gun can be at 45m. This was confirmed to me by 3 airgun specialists, of which 2 are UK FT Shooters. At 45m a 8gr pellet (leaving your barrel at about 800 ft/s) should be travelling at about 600ft/s which will be enough to knock down rabbits, rats and other TYPICAL airgun quarry.
    Question : How much is the Hornet ?
    On the Scopes, Stay away from scopes manufactured in China, ...Rather look at scopes made in Japan. "N/S new gold crown tactical 6-24 X 50 mil dot IR " is Chinese... and that's why they cost R 990 ! Look at the Nikkos made in Japan, quality is much better and so is image ! With scopes (in general) you get what you pay for.
    Oh yes, Lynx is also good but a bit more expensive than the Nikkos...put a NS and a Lynx next to eachother, you will be surprised, I'm not saying more than that !
    If you are planning on doing FT then consider SideFocus scope like the NS 6-24 or 10-50, Optics on both these are excellent and have been compared to Leupold/Premier Reticles Custom scopes optical quality. Range Finding is also much better and easier than on a front PA scope. The price of the scope will confirm that it's a better scope !
    Nikko Stirling prices are very good if you look at what you get, the more you pay for the Nikko, the better the optics and quality will be. Stay with Nikko, you won't be sorry.
    IR (red and green) works nice when doing late afternoon hunting, but you won't get that on the SF scopes. Catch 22, if you want IR you will end up with nothing more than a 6-24 which is perfect for pest control but not ideal for FT

  8. #8
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    Urabus,
    First thing, Quality springers like the TX200 and HW77or97 are just as accurate as good quality PCP's like S400, Hornets and the like. However, for hunting (if you intend eating the rats) or pest control (which I hope you're doing).
    Power - 12ft is said to be the most accurate so try and stick to it, you'll be amazed how accurate a 12ft gun can be at 45m. This was confirmed to me by 3 airgun specialists, of which 2 are UK FT Shooters. At 45m a 8gr pellet (leaving your barrel at about 800 ft/s) should be travelling at about 600ft/s which will be enough to knock down rabbits, rats and other TYPICAL airgun quarry. Shot placement is ofcourse critical otherwise the quarry will suffer.

    Question : How much is the Hornet ?
    I'm a Air Arms fan and will be one for a long time. I believe that they are good value for money and can also be customized to add even more value! Up here in JHB the Hornet is more expensive than a S400 Classic. Ofcourse then Hornet is regulated compared to the unregulated S400, but todays unregulated guns are just as consistent as yester years regulated, then the only other thing that bothers me is the fact that it's a carbine, meaning smaller cylinder holding less air and that means less shots / charge. On my S400 I get about 70-80 very consistent shots / charge, how many will you get on the Hornet. I checked on the BSA website and there is no info to be found on the Hornet. Went to http://www.straightshooters.com who said that you can get 28 full power shots which is really nothing to brag about ! Maybe it's much more if tuned down to 800fps with 8gr pellets. Just check the shot capacity with the dealer, if you will be shooting field target you need an absolute min of 40 shots, but I would strongly suggest atleast 60 shots / charge. Other than that the gun looks nice and has good features.

    Go to http://www.straightshooters.com and then click on products and features, they have info on most airguns that seems to be fair and accurate.

    On the Scopes, Stay away from scopes manufactured in China, ...Rather look at scopes made in Japan. "N/S new gold crown tactical 6-24 X 50 mil dot IR " is Chinese... and that's why they cost R 990 ! Look at the Nikkos made in Japan, quality is much better and so is image ! With scopes (in general) you get what you pay for.
    Oh yes, Lynx is also good but a bit more expensive than the Nikkos...put a NS and a Lynx next to eachother, you will be surprised, I'm not saying more than that Online!
    If you are planning on doing FT then consider SideFocus scope like the NS 6-24 or 10-50, Optics on both these are excellent and have been compared to Leupold/Premier Reticles Custom scopes' optical quality. Range Finding is also much better and easier than on a front PA scope.
    For FT you also need a scope that can rangefind down to between 8-10m, Gold Crown I think is 25m. The price of the scope will confirm that it's a better scope !
    Nikko Stirling prices are very good if you look at what you get, the more you pay for the Nikko, the better the optics and quality will be. Stay with Nikko, you won't be sorry.
    IR (red and green) works nice when doing late afternoon hunting, but you won't get that on the SF scopes (that I know of). Catch 22, if you want IR you will end up with nothing more than a 6-24 which is perfect for pest control but not ideal for FT. With FT (as most things in life) BIGGER is BETTER...
    Hoping that this answers your questions... Cheers Neil
    <span class='smallblacktext'>[ Edited Tue Jul 20 2004, 01:38PM ]</span>

  9. #9
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    hi neilg,

    the story is, i'm about to buy my 3rd air rifle, the first 2 being spring/piston (supersport, model 46), i thought i would go the pcp route. i really like the TX200HC and the 97K laminated (local shop promised to show me one in 4 weeks, and that was 3 months ago...), and i also like to "DIY tune" springers as they are much simpler/safer than pcp's perhaps my previous hobbies....tuning/modifying down hill mtb's and subaru impreza's have turned me into a "tuning freak". like my springers, i had big plans for the 97K and the TX should i decide to get them......DIY venom or lazaglide for the HW and AA FAC service kit/chambers low friction washers for the AA models. but as i mentioned above, i've got 2 "quality" springers already, both shooting much better than out the box plus all the tlc i've put in to remove the varnish ang gave it that oiled finish.............i just can't justify buying another one.....maybe in a few months time.

    "how much is the hornet?"

    well, that's the thing, i'm getting it for a really good price. put it this way, i will be able to get the hornet "k", SAS silencer and that BSA 6-24 scope all out the box from a dealer for the price of a S400 classic plus change for few tins of pellets. i'm a AA fan myself, hence the affinity for the HC, i was convinced that the S410K was the one to get, until i got offered the hornet as a special import.

    yes, the cylinder is smaller (75cc), but it's filled at 232bar and i believe it equates to +/- 70 shots @ 12ftlbs as well. the american/expoert model (also the S400/410) is rated at 20+ftlbs and hence only 28 shots. you see what i mean with visiting too many american air gun sites........the U.S. is prob. the biggest air/gun market in the world. if 12ftlbs is the most ideal ME for air guns, why then are most/if not all pcp air rifles >>12ftlbs over there???? i thought it's the pellet velocity (<960fps) that's the determing factor. that's why we (air gunners) play with different pellet weights. if 12 ftlbs is said to be the most accurate, then it shouldn't make a difference what weight pellet one uses........even those "ultra-light" hunter pellets. i stand for correction ofcourse..........
    i suspect much of this 12 ftlbs theory is based on the uk air gun law (where did FT originated??? UK?) i firmly believe 20+ ftlbs air guns can be just as accurate and easier to shoot (long distance), and more effective than the 12ftlbs models. there are definitely situations where a higher powered air rifles are more favourable, else why do people in the UK apply for their "FAC's" or why would firms like theoben offer FAC up-grades.

    i've no doubt that 12 ftlbs is suffice for "normal" hunting situations......i read somewhere that it requires about 6ftlbs to take out a rabbit with a head shot. taken form *straightshooters* even a std. diana model 46 with ME of 10ftlbs (CPH's) will still do 6ftlbs at 50yds.

    enough about that...................let's get back to the scope issue. i agree with the quality vs chinese optics thing......the difference is really day and night. i really like the LYNX 6.5-20 SF, then again i can't justify putting a scope that costs almost 80% of the rifle on an entery level PCP. i've got 2 BSA "air rifle" scopes (chinese) for a while now, very happy with them. i found them to be betther than the chinese N/S in terms of clearity and similar to those of hawke air max...............i will go have a look at the jap. N/S's. would you say IR is a must have???? else, the bsa mil dot will just have to do for now. i'm more interested in HFT than FT. afaik, in HFT, once the shooting starts, the scope is to letft alone.........ie. fixed parallex (30-35yds) and mag (10X). so i guess 6-24 X40 10yds-infinity is plenty for my needs. maybe when i get better (i hope)/get more into FT, i will up-grade to a combo that's more appropriate.

    thanks


  10. #10
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    OK, so now we know that you have way too much money, especially if you're "playing" with Subaru's !! Hope there isn't any M3 fans on this forum .... hahaha

    Join the club, nothing pleases me in Standard Format, that's just so boring. From the move Cool as Ice : To put something back together you first have to take it apart...

    Most people don't realize how much a Spring Piston can be improved on if you're willing to put in some extra effort !

    By the way, a S400 Classic without any attachments now go for R 5100 and as far as I know the BSA Hornet goes for about the same price, anything cheaper than that we shouldn't talk about on this forum. That could just attract the attention of ... let's leave it at that. If you can get everything for less than R 5100 it is definately a excellent price and worth it !

    Filling at 232bar, best you get yourself a 300bar cylinder, normal cylinders are also filled to 232 which means that you will within 2 refills equalize the gun and the diving cylinder and won't be able to fill your gun to 232 bar.
    As far as I know the Americans (who always no best and everything about everything - Jack of all trades...Master of none) shoot 17 or 18ft/lbs in FT. Looking at the USofA sites you will see that Premier 10.5gr are the winners in most of their matches, the faster you shoot the heavier the pellet otherwise you start getting flyers. As for the accuracy and 12ft, been confirmed by UK and SA shooters, the fact that you need a FAC in the UK doesn't mean that power can't be pushed up to 17/18 if you don't have a FAC, it means that you better hope that they don't catch you. I personally haven't done the 12 and up experiment so have no personal experience with it.
    On the putting a expensive scope on a quality airgun, that's exactly the point, expensive scopes are of better quality (in all regards) and also more dependable. Most FT Shooters use scopes that's more expensive than the guns .....
    As for IR, it's nice when it starts getting a bit dark and you light up your reticle, while a black crosshair will dissapear against your target the IR will be seen and help with accuracy and shot placement. It definately falls in the nice to have category. On the scope, buy the best you can, it's worth it.
    Speak again later, have to go play with my car ... and no, it's not a STI-B21 with yellow rally stickers, 1 day ...

  11. #11
    Sharp Shooter
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    Hi Guys,

    I really would not like to say that the US market is the largest for airguns, for a long time the airgun has been seen as the poor relation to firearms although over the last 15 to 20 years I think that viewpoint has been changing.

    Urabus - you ask the question about if 12 Ft.lbs is the optimum power why are so many rifles in the US at a higher power level. I think the simplest answer is because they don't have a statutory limit imposed upon them. Plus they do seem to have an obsession for power - after all guess where most calibres with the suffix "Magnum" came from.

    The simple fact is that most of the finest air rifles available have come from British manufacturers offering equipment to the UK market and its power limit of 12Ft.lbs. One of the curious side effects of this limit is that it has tended to show that in .177 calibre the majority of pellets available give their best performance at just under 12Ft.lbs.

    From my own experience (as I hold a UK firearms certificate) when the power levels rise above that limit, the .177 can lose its accuracy unless the pellet selection is matched to the power output. If you don't make the right selection of pellet to power then all the extra velocity means is that you miss the target quicker. A high power air rifle delivers a much harsher blast of air to the pellet and the lighter designs just can't handle this, generally speaking with high power .177 then the heavy pellets (Crosman Premier 10.5gr, Bisley Magnum and Barracuda Match) tend to give the best accuracy. Also as the power output rises the number of shots drops away considerably and noise levels also rise considerably.

    I personally use an S410 carbine for hunting in the UK set at 11.5Ft.lbs and I will quite happily shoot out to 50 metres with it. Although I have an FAC I don't own a high power air rifle. My own personal opinion is that they are a waste of time for me. On the land over which I have permission to shoot if I can't reach it with the 12Ft.lbs air rifle then my .22rf CZ Varmint gets used. If that is not sufficient then out comes my Ruger .223 or my CZ .243 - the high power air rifle has no use for me.

    There is also the small matter of the cost of such an item. The FAC rated rifles that give any kind of worthwhile performance in terms of power and accuracy cost from ?400 to ?900 and because they require an FAC have a restricted resale market. My CZ .22 costs about ?250 brand new and is a hell of a lot more versatile than a high powered air rifle that would cost me a lot more.

    Just one other thing about hunting with an air rifle - the enjoyable aspect of hunting with an air rifle is to use field craft to compensate for the lower power level of the rifle, otherwise you might as well get a firearm.

    Regards

    Dale

    <span class='smallblacktext'>[ Edited Wed Jul 21 2004, 09:48AM ]</span>

  12. #12
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    Thanks for your opinion Dale !
    Fully agreed. Will one day get myself a Anschutz Target .22LR with a nice scope (like a Leupoldt 8.5-25) and a silencer for varmint hunting. Will always carry my trusty old .177 Airgun with me, but for the longer ranges I fully agree with Dale, match caliber to quarry and distance.
    Reason I don't own a .22LR yet ... to much airgunning equipment out there that I don't own yet, LR will just have to wait.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale

    I really would not like to say that the US market is the largest for airguns.............
    well, big enough for british manufactures to produce us specs and us specials like the beeza s10 bull barrel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale
    The simple fact is that most of the finest air rifles available have come from British manufacturers offering equipment to the UK market and its power limit of 12Ft.lbs. One of the curious side effects of this limit is that it has tended to show that in .177 calibre the majority of pellets available give their best performance at just under 12Ft.lbs.
    is't possible that due to the 12 ftlbs law, most uk air rifles are designed to perform best at that energy level, similarly the pellets are designed for 12 ftlbs air rifles?????

    it would be interesting to see if a 20 ftlbs+/FAC/high powered air rifle (originally designed at that ME level, maybe one of those fine swedish examples...) using "FAC" specific pellets, is less/same/more accurate than the same air rifle but modified to 12ftlbs using normal pellets????


    Quote Originally Posted by Dale
    From my own experience (as I hold a UK firearms certificate) when the power levels rise above that limit, the .177 can lose its accuracy unless the pellet selection is matched to the power output.....................
    my point exactly.......by using appropriate pellets, high powered air rifles should be just as accurate????

  14. #14
    ice's Avatar ice
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    Hi all, i've read through comments on airgun power (accuracy) and i can only say this -

    I have a Talon 18" in .177 shooting diablo baracuda pellets at +-1000fps, which gives you just over 24pe with very good accuracy (.5 " at 50m)

    I believe the power issue is totally up to the user, and if 12fpe is enough well good for you, but i know my rifle's trajectory (with the current setup) very well and won't settle for anything less than 20fpe.

    I've made clean kills on quarry as far out as 70m and can consistently hit a soda can at 100m.

    I think accuracy is not so easily defined as to say put a pellets in .177 at around 12pe and you WILL get the best accuracy from you airgun. Identical guns with identical pellets won't give you IDENTICAL results. My Talon loves heavy pellets, in fact i couldn't get it to shoot any of the sub 10gr pellets below 1150fps without a very large shot to shot spread and with pellets going super sonic you wouldn't hit anything at 20 because of the tumbling effect.

    I don't suffer from "Magnum-mytis" but my gun prefer the high velocity with heavy pellets and with the added benefit of minimal holdover at up to 100m i'm more than satified with 24FPE.

    So for all of you 12pe guys good luck, but i won't be joining you, .5" at 50m is good enough for me.

  15. #15
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    eeish, all these favourable views on the air force/talon...

    like neilg, i also read in the uk forums that they are not that "accurate"........thinking about it now, perhaps the air rifle is meant to perform its best at the designed power level (not 12 ftlbs).

    i've only looked at one (not sure the model), it looked short and compact, yet with a longer than average barrel (aid to the accuracy?) compared to other carbines. how do they handle in the field?

    i'm more of a traditonalist myself...ie. prefers the classic sporter look. then again i also believe in form over substance (or is't the other way round?). hmm.....so much to think about.

    guido, where did you get yours? in cape town? and what sort of "tinkering" are we talking about here?

    thanks

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